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The Street Fighter V Thread

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@Darc_Requiem This will be a fun thing to talk about while we wait for the 10/23 patch. 🙂

 

:tldr:, engage

 

Spoiler

 

I am not a Ryu player (like most folks I've dabbled with him but I'm also one of those people that likes to pick less represented characters so he's not someone I'd stick with) so I can't speak from the perspective of playing him. Like most people I have played against approximately 125,000 Ryus online however so I can at least say from the other side what would make him seem scarier/more effective.

 

With all that in mind (s eye), Ryu in SFV to me has two big issues:

  1. Weakly defined role. I think this is part of the problem with existing through the seasons since the beginning. Originally he was the best you had for defensive, zoning style play but now you have plenty of other, better options. He damn sure isn't a rush down character. And he can't really even hack it as the "jack of all trades, master of none" choice when Necalli and Akuma do that and do it much better.
  2. Poor use of the "core" SFV systems. Mainly CCs and VTs. Neither of his CC buttons lead to much and one even whiffs on crouchers. VT1 is still lame while VT2 seems good but defensive (which I think is fine if it is a match up choice but having your "good" VT be defensive leaves you in a bad spot in this game). VSkill feels weird to balance - Capcom seems really reticent to give chars defensive tech that works earlier than frame 3 without spending meter in this game - and overall not great but I think it is the least of his system based issues.

I think that #1 has led Capcom to balance Ryu weirdly over the years (it must be even stranger for them because they know damn well what the full season is going to look like character wise and how they will play and they need Ryu to somehow fit into that) and #2 is one of the reasons why QoL changes don't really float him up in the tiers like they have with some other characters.

 

I also think there is some pull to the idea that with Ryu being consistently the most popular character online, Capcom isn't super incentivized to buff him up. Clearly people will play him regardless, and they may be worried that if he is too good the online world will just drown in a sea of shotos. If it ain't broke - or if it is broke and people still use it - don't fix it. 

 

I don't agree with that myself but it also wouldn't surprise me if true (similar to why I think Capcom boxed themselves into a corner with FANG and are just willing to let him be "terrible" forever). 

 

But assuming Ryu is going to make it out of the basement, I think you do it by addressing those two points.

 

Give the poor hobo a job and the tools to do it. It is hard because the character pool is much deeper than S1 (and is only going to keep growing,) but if you look at Ken you can see where Capcom has hit on a decent spot for a shoto even with Akuma lording over all shotos like the Mufasa of character balance. 

 

Ken is a very good example of how to make an "aggressive" shoto: still has the defensive options to play the way you expect, but is overall rewarded for being more aggressive, taking more risks, and playing in a bigger, flashier style (fits the character and the intended player) with opportunities for 1-button confirms into great carry/damage and big combos.

 

I have zero idea how to do it mechanically, but tune Ryu to be the counter point to that. A little more range on key pokes (I wouldn't go whole grid spaces but something like his cr.MK could definitely get a range buff and help him,) make at least FB cancels more consistent for him, if not also Jodan cancels to re-establish space, maybe tweak FB frame data a bit in terms of start up/recovery to let him throw plasma without quite as much terror in his heart. Stuff like that.

 

On the scale of defensive characters in this game in my mind you have Guile on one end who can do the job almost entirely with specials and a sprinkling of normals, with Menat on the other hand doing it mostly with normals and sprinkling of specials. Sagat is closer to the Guile end, Falke to the Menat end. Ryu could be the "balanced" one on the defensive spectrum.

 

It feels like they try to build Ryu for this but he falls short. Part of it is that he can't really play well at the range he seems to want to due to his normals being stubby (in a game of stubby normals, to be fair) and that he doesn't get a lot out of it other than slightly chipping the opponent down without really controlling them particularly well (no Sonic Boom lockdown, no amazing normals to poke at with impunity, still has the frame data and hurt boxes on his FBs unlike Sagat to have to really worry about getting CH out of start up). Part of it is that his tool set doesn't back it up super well, and I think the other part of it is that the way they slapped VSystem stuff on him hurts when you get to brass tacks.

 

CCs are one part of it for me. Even in his current incarnation, you usually end up fighting Ryu about where I think he wants you in terms of spacing. However things get funky with how CCs enter into the equation, because once you start getting into that range people start looking to deploy their CC buttons and Ryu's aren't particularly scary. I'm not sure this would ever get any better - I don't see them redoing his CC buttons - so maybe by addressing some attack ranges he can either preemptively poke people out of CC buttons, or he can whiff punish more reliably (especially if special cancels convert more often, making the whiff punishes a little more painful).

 

The VTs are the other part. VT2 seems pretty good, but I personally don't love any of the "counter" based VTs as it is still a hard guess, though at least with Ryu it can have good payout if you have the resources for follow up. VT1 is where I'd throw most of my revisions. I would personally say "fuck it" at this point and make it something closer to Chun's VT1 or Laura's VT1 that is a straight "install" mode with a duration. Retool the fireballs as needed (normal speed, lose the ability to charge) so that he can just live in enhanced mode for awhile and reap some of the benefits.

 

Fighting against it, the biggest issue I see with VT1 is that it seems like it should be the thing to turn the match around but it burns out really fast and is generally not scary while doing so. It is very easy to "just block it out" and even eat the guard break without it really doing a lot. Compare to some other "drain on use" VTs that allow for much stronger pressure (Guile, Akuma), scarier set ups (Guile, Akuma, Abigail), or bigger damage swings (Ken, Akuma, Abigail). 

 

Make VT1 a good, consistent offensive boost- even if you need it to be 3 bars, so long as it is worth it in the end - so that Ryu has the same hat in the VT ring as everyone else with VT2 being a solid other option based on match ups/personal preference. 

 

I honestly don't think you'd need to change a lot to make Ryu a solid mid or even upper-mid character. I don't know that you're ever going to see him buffed/tuned back up to top 5 contention, and like with the grapplers, I think that is probably fine. In a world where every 3rd player is using Ryu he probably shouldn't be on the best end of the game, but he probably also shouldn't be on the worst end either. 

 

The real question to me is if anyone at Capcom sees it as worth bothering. I'm sure they'll at least kick the tires as he is the iconic character for the series so we'll see what they do with him in S4.

 

 

I don't have many other thoughts for other characters. I've been mulling over things I'd like to see for Laura in S4 but its honestly a pretty boring list and I've already typed enough for one day. 🙂 

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I was thinking about Alex changes but Vesper posted a video just about everything I was thinking about he mentioned.  I may compile them anyway but I don't know now. I'm glad you are looking into Laura. I have no idea what to do that would maintain her playstyle and not induce a mound of salt.

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Alex- Season 4 Suggestions

 

Normals

 

St.,HK - Startup Reduced from 17F to 15F, Disadvantage on hit decreased from -4 to -2
Cr. MP - Startup Reduced from 8F to 6F

Cr. HP - Startup Reduced from 10F to 8F
Cr. MK - Startup Reduced from 9F to 8F, Special Cancellable

Cr. HK - Startup Reduced from 11F to 10F

 

Alex is a neutral based grappler with slow long range pokes. Speed up the start up to make his pokes more effective. Cr. MK is special cancellable as well. There would be no point to use it over Cr. MP otherwise.

 

Unique Attacks

 

F+MP (Overhead)- Advantage on hit increased from +1 to +4

 

This move has starts up in 22F, it should grant more advantage on hit.

 

Throws

 

Face Crush Chop (Forward Throw)

  • Damage increased from 120 to 150
  • Stun increased from 120 to 150

To be blunt, it's absurd for a grapplers throw to do such power damage and stun.

 

Specials

 

LP, MP, HP Power Bomb

  • Startup decreased from 6F to 5F
  • Throw range increased (one square on training stage)

EX Power Bomb

  • Throw Invincible

Alex gains no oki on hit. 6F is too slow. Even with the modest range increase the range is still poor. Especially HP Powerbomb.

 

LP Head Crush

  • Startup decreased from 36F to 33F
  • Lands closer to opponent on hit (one square on training stage)

MP Head Crush

  • Startup decreased from 40F to 36F
  • Lands closer to opponent on hit (one square on training stage)

HP Head Crush

  • Startup decreased from 44F to 40F
  • Lands closer to opponent on hit (one square on training stage)

EX Head Crush

  • Lands closer to opponent on hit (one square on training stage)

This move is similar to Birdies Bull Revenger (Dolphin Dive). However it requires a charge and was slower. Lowered the startup.

 

LK Slash Elbow

  • Forward travel distance increased (two squares on training stage)
  • Lower hurtbox decreased (one square on training stage)
  • Disadvantage on Block decreased from -4 to -2

MK, HK Slash Elbow 

  • Lower hurtbox decreased (one square on training stage

LK Slash Elbow has basically been restored to Season 1.

 

LK Air Knee Smash

  • Startup decreased from 6F to 5F
  • Invincible to Airborne Attacks 5F to 13F

MK Air Knee Smash

  • Startup decreased from 9F to 7F
  • Invincible to Airborne Attacks 7F to 17F

HK Air Knee Smash

  • Startup decreased from 11F to 9F
  • Invincible to Airborne Attacks 9F to 19F

EX Air Knee Smash

  • Startup decreased from 6F to 5F
  • Invincible to Airborne Attacks 1F to 13F
  • Lands closer to opponent on hit (two squares on training stage)

An anti air that only hits airborne opponents should be more effective. It starts up faster and is invincible to airborne attacks after startup.

 

V-Triggers

 

V-Trigger 2

  • Flying DDT hits standing and airborne opponents
  • Choke Sleeper V-Gauge usage decreased from 1000F to 500F

Minor buffs to make this V-Trigger a more viable option. Flying DDT now hits airborne opponents and Choke Sleeper's gauge usage has been halved.

 

Critical Art

 

Heavy Hammer - Damage increased from 340 to 350

 

 

Side note: I'm no expert at this game by any means. When it comes to Alex, Capcom clearly wants him to be a neutral based grappler. Every other grappler's gains advantange after landing their command grab. Alex does not. Landing a Power Bomb resets Alex neutral. The problem is that Capcom slowed down his best long range pokes and saddled him with poor anti airs. Alex players have to rely on hail mary gimmicks to get in for little reward. I think these changes would address that issue and allow the character to be played the way he was designed to be.

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15 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

I was thinking about Alex changes but Vesper posted a video just about everything I was thinking about he mentioned.  I may compile them anyway but I don't know now. I'm glad you are looking into Laura. I have no idea what to do that would maintain her playstyle and not induce a mound of salt.

I agree with what Vesper said about Alex and Laura relative to how much you're ever likely to see them buffed. Both of those characters (and as he said all grapplers) are built in such a way that tends to piss people off, so the player base at large is usually overall happier if they aren't seen as especially good and/or show up a lot online. And happy players stick around longer to buy more costumes. 😉

 

I can't speak to Alex specifically, but from what little I understand about the character it definitely feels like Capcom has tuned him very, very weirdly. I think they got nervous when he had "good" neutral early on so they shithammered that just so he wouldn't become a problem in tandem with his EX moves and command grabs. Not that any of those are over the top in the grand scheme of the game - I think they just got scared about a character having good neutral and good shenanigans. Which is funny because that's where we are now with the TT anyways. Akuma even has a jumping grab/overhead special move. Suck it Alex! 

 

As for Laura, there is overall not a lot I'd change with her. Similar clause: if she ever ends up strong in the eyes of the meta again, they'll just take a bat to her knees in the x.5 patch or next season. Better to hope for QoL changes that don't rock the boat too much and that changes around her can bolster her up a bit (similar to what happened with Mika this season).

 

My super comprehensive expert Laura player list is:

  • +damage or stun on Sunset Wheel, all versions. My original thought was +10 damage but +whatever stun would also be fine I think, and be a little less explosive. I think one of the reasons the weaker grapplers are where they are this season is because the risk/reward for their command grabs is off. For Laura I think Sunset doing a little more damage (so the cash out is more valuable) or more stun (more general pressure, possibility for big stun combos) would help to make Sunset a more effective tool.
  • Buff st.MK. It is in a weird place now where the payout of the move honestly isn't too bad in a vacuum, but at 7 frames start up it feels just bit too slow to serve as the pre-emptive counter poke button I think it is supposed to be (and it is mechanically sort of overshadowed by cr.HP). Dial it back to 6 frames of start up and even revert the + on hit to +3 if +4 on hit is too gdlk.
  • Buff HP Bolt Charge. This may be a personal thing but it bugs me how often I get trades with this move in "clean" AA situations, usually due to deep hitting jump in buttons. I think adjusting the hurt box would do it, or maybe bringing the hit box up a bit more so it hits earlier? FAT has said forever that it has upper body invincibility (though I don't see it anywhere else) and it shouldn't be as good as a DP but a little more consistency would be nice. Fun dumb bonus thought: break EX Bolt Charge into LP+MP = existing EX, MP+HP = EX HP Bolt with air invincibility.
  • Buff VT2. I don't know that you'll ever knock VT1 off it's throne, and that is fine. VT2 is one of those VTs that is going to be more niche regardless of what you do with it, but it would be nice if it was at least a good fit for that niche. As is, it doesn't work as a defensive VT: the dodge becomes invincible too slowly to really work as a counter, the grab comes out too slowly to be used on its own (especially since you have to do it from Sway), and the projectile dodge property isn't amazing, though honestly this is probably the best part. I think this VT is a trap from a design standpoint because I don't know that Capcom would want to give an up-close pressure monster like Laura a good-to-great defensive VT. Plus it is only 2 bars. So speeding up the dodge may not be in the cards. What may be a good alternative is to allow Laura to raw dawg use Shock Choke (B/F+HP+HK) as a slower-but-higher-payout command grab. Just spitballing; I fully expect this VT to remain in it's bleh state going into S4.

That's pretty much it. In general I think Laura's design limits how much she will ever really get buffed, which is fine. I'll happily take sanding off some rough edges.

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@GetTheTables  I think HP Bolt should be invincible to airborne attacks after startup. To me any move that does not hit grounded opponents should invincible to airborne attacks while active, that being the case, this is what I think it should be.

 

HP Bolt Charge

  • Invincible to airborne attacks from 7F to 15F
Edited by Darc_Requiem

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I had a similar thought initially but I think I understand why it is what it is. 

 

Laura isn't really someone who is supposed to control the neutral or even have a particularly amazing AA. Compare that to shotos/shoto spinoffs which are more based around that and the DP is like "the" AA move. Plus the input for it is slightly harder to do (ignoring shortcuts)  so its a little harder to react with. 

 

All in all I can see why HP Bolt doesn't have air invincibility. It still does good damage for an AA, leads to oki (not great oki, but still oki), and due to it being a hit-grab doesn't have the weird "fall out" issues that DPs/EX DPs have every once in a blue moon. Plus it has a really satisfying *smack* sound when you land it. 🙂 

 

Main thing I'm hoping for is a little more consistency with it vs some of the lower hitting jump in attacks. Though honestly I'd be shocked if anything changed with HP Bolt in S4. When it comes to Laura I'm expecting them to either leave her mostly untouched or tune  weird stuff like they do sometimes when it seems like they don't know or care how to balance a character (usually due to them having a contentious design; see FANG).

 

Actual Laura S4 changes:

 - cr. MP: collision box adjusted

 - st.LP: collision box adjusted

 - cr.MK: now 0 on block

 - cr.HK: now -13 on block

 

Laura buffs!....?....... 🙃

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I played Laura season 1 but I don't really know enough to hazard a guess as far as buffs. They've nerfed her shenanigans but didn't really give her anything in return. I agree that VT2 should be buffed. It should be the V-Trigger Laura players go to match ups like Guile and Sagat. As a Kolin player eventhough VT1 is worse over all. It's better in some match ups. Zangief and Abigail come to mind. VT2 should have a similar utility for Laura.

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Yeah and I feel like VT2 is actually pretty close to that. I don't know that anything is going to push it "over" VT1 - I think its just easier to go offensive than to try and pull off defensive reads as your comeback mechanic - but even now there are match ups where I think it could be useful. Its just a little too finicky at the moment.

 

Upside is that since VTs are a little more prominent as character features, the over-under on VT2 getting buffed (or at least tuned) ain't too bad.

 

Also fun fact: VT2 fucking rules in the Silver/early Gold levels. One thing that VT2 is fantastic as is fast, near flawless 2 button AA with great payout. Its a VT that you can get a lot of mileage out of if your opponent is jumpy and since it is two bars you can get to it faster and start choking frogs. 🚫 ✈️ 🚫

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So apparently, for PS4, the update patch has jnput delay down to 4.41F and improved the stability from 40% to 77%. For reference the PC version is 3.42F and 97% stability. The minimum gram reduction is about 1F but the stability is a big deal. Instead of inputs fluctuating between 5-7F they are now always more than 4F but less than 5F.

Edited by Darc_Requiem

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On 11/19/2018 at 9:47 PM, GetTheTables said:

I finally get internet again and did my eyes decieve me or did @misterBee pick up SFV on PS4? 😄

FUCK I'VE BEEN DISCOVERED.

 

But no there's a very specific reason I'm doing this.

 

Sigh...if you guys want to play some time this week let me know.  😢

 

I feel dirty.

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1 hour ago, misterBee said:

FUCK I'VE BEEN DISCOVERED.

 

But no there's a very specific reason I'm doing this.

 

Sigh...if you guys want to play some time this week let me know.  😢

 

I feel dirty.

Haha I figured it was for a pet project. Didn't mean to blow up your spot. I didn't even go looking for it; PS4 was just like "HEY THIS GUY YOU KNOW IS PLAYING THIS GAME YOU PLAY CHECK IT OUT". 

 

I'll be around this week in general. Visiting my parents tomorrow for the holiday but not a lot after that. I'm bound and determined to dust off UNIST sometime soon too.

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The Kolin Ada costume is pure fire. I actually really like all the RE costumes, though I only bought the Kolin one.

 

I also really like dirtbag Santa for Cody for some reason. Next year Sagat better get the Santa treatment. They could even put antlers on his tiger.

 

EDIT: I forgot something that dawned on me when I was practicing with Kolin in the Ada costume. If you pick Color 5 and then pop her into her alt outfit she kinda sorta looks like B. Jenet.

 

Actually another thing that dawned on me because that outfit has no sleeves is that Kolin is fucking cut. She has better arms than most of the men in the cast.

Edited by GetTheTables

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Got bored. I don't play this character, so I'm not going to pretend to be an expert at her flaws but I figured I'd give this a shot anyway.

 

Sakura - Season 4 Suggestions

 

Normals

 

St. MP - Hitbox Extended Forward and Downward (1 square on training stage)

St. MK- Hitbox Extended Forward (1 square on training stage)

St. HK - Recovery Frames Reduced from 26F to 23F, Advantage on hit increased from +1 to +3

DF+HK - Recovery Frames Reduced from 22F to 20F, Advantage on hit increased from +3 to +4
Cr. HP - Recovery Frames Reduced from 26F to 20F

 

Specials

 

LP Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 17F to 15F, Total Frames Reduced from 49F to 47F

MP Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 17F to 15F, Total Frames Reduced from 51F to 48F

HP Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 17F to 15F, Total Frames Reduced from 53F to 49F

LP,MP,HP Hadoken

  • Advantage on hit increased from -2 to -1
  • Disadvantage on Block decreased from -8 to -6

Charged Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 41F to 36F, Total Frames Reduced from 71F to 66F
EX Hadoken- Startup Reduced from 14F to 13F Overall Frames Reduced from 45F to 44F

Tengyo Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 17F to 15F

Charged Tengyo Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 39F to 35F, Total Frames Reduced from 75F to 70F

EX Tengyo Hadoken - Startup Reduced from 15F to 14F, Total Frames Reduced from 45F to 44F

LK Shunpukyaku - Startup Reduced from 17F to 12F, Advantage on hit increased from +1 to +2

MK Shunpukyaku - Startup Reduced from 21F to 15F,  Disadvantage on block decreased from -6 to -4, Damage increased from 70 to 80

HK Shunpukyaku - Startup Reduced from 24F to 18F

EX Shunpukyaku - Final Hit Launches the opponent into a juggle state

 

V-Skill

 

Harukaze - Total Frames Reduced from 54F to 49F, Landing Recovery reduced from 15F to 12F

 

 

V-Triggers

 

V-Trigger 1 (2-Bars)

 

Duration increased from 2000F to 2400F

Hadoken V-Gauge usage decreased from 500F to 400F

EX Hadoken- Startup Reduced from 13F to 12F Overall Frames Reduced from 44F to 43F

Hogasho - Startup Reduced from 21F to 18F, Damage increased from 60 to 90, Stun increased from 120 to 150

 

V-Trigger 2 (2-Bars)

 

Duration remains 3500F

Shouoken  V-Gauge usage reduced from 1000F to 700F

Shunpukyaku V-Gauge usaged reduced from 1000F to 700F

 

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